[BigCaulk69]

i will make it relatively short....
-first off if you want to call the electoral college a loop hole then you are just picking and choosing your laws and procedures.
-second, gore's daddy was a nice rich politician from tennessee...so don't act like gore was some guy who worked his way up from the streets and didnt use daddy's help.
-third, its about 50/50 repubs and dems in the congress right now. and all the dems are going along with bush right now. so i don't know where you were seeing all those extra repubs.
-fourth, when the BBC, british broadcasting company, calls bush's speach one of the greatest moments in american history i find that pretty telling in how powerful of a speech it was.
Robbie

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checking something out

[Maian]

Listen, I know that Al Gore was never poor. In fact, almost every ploitician in office was born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Im just saying that I hate what these republicans stand for. They have no touch with the common man. I dont want to sound racist or stereotping, but most republicans are rich white, sexist, racist, old men, who only care about themselves and their own well being. Democrats however understand what life is like for the unfortunate, and who want to help. I come from a city on the border, and its a very poor town. I see things that these people only see on TV. And Bush himself, you cant tell me that speech was written by himself. This guy makes up words for gods sake! Dont tell me either that this reckless idiot could've become president if he wasn't "daddy's little boy" Or that Catherine Harris and Jeb Bush didn't do everything in their power to keep Gore from winning. Im 95% sure that the election was rigged. And yes, the electoral college is a loop hole. Democracy is what the people decide, and the popular vote showed what they wanted.

Actually, one of Bush's cabinet members, or advisers or something went to my high school. You can even look it up, I dont know his name, but he went to Riverside Highschool (my school). I live in El Paso, a strongly democratic city, and this guy has the balls to come back here and show off that he works with Bush. He makes me ashamed to be a Riverside Ranger. When he talke to our school, I refused to clap or even acknowledge his accomplishments. He even brought a plaque with Bush's signature. Im not saying that I would ever do this, but I hope that plaque gets destroyed or something. Now, I dont mean to offend any of you hardcore republicans, Im just telling you my viewpoints. Remember, the U.S. is a democracy, not a republic.

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"If shame had a face I think it would kind of look like mine"

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Lifehouse
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[MunkeyEye]

ehm (scratches head an looks around)..... has anyone seen my sniper rifle anywhere? c'mon guys, let's talk TFC!

[ROOFCUTTER]

Not a republic???

In Articl IV, Section. 4 of the U.S. Constitution, the following clause appears:
"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,"

For a "republican form of government" to exist in any of the United States, the Union must first exist as a confederacy and not a democracy. In American politics, the guarantee clause of "a republican form of government" to each State was written to prevent the federal government, which would be created by the Constitution, from extending or construing its Constitutional rights or powers, in such a manner, as to invade the areas that were to remain under the sovereignty of the individual Free States.

The clause was written to protect the sovereignty of each Free State within the Union. It was also written to protect the Equal Right of all citizens within a State to determine the way they would manage their lives and property as they pursued God's Blessings for their happiness. The founders believed that this right was an inalienable Right from God. They also believed that this right belonged to everyone. It is commonly referred to by our founders as "Right of Conscience" or "Liberty of Conscience".


If it wasen't for this form of goverment we would never of had civil rights, disability acts and just about everthing that we feel is fair today but was fought tooth and nail at the time of it's inactment or attempts to inact.
We are a Republic under the rule of law.

I hope they are still teaching these things in school.


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I don't think it's nice your laughing...see my Llama don't like people laughing...gets the crazy idea your laughing at him...Now if you apologize like I know your going to I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.
(adjusted Clint 1964)

[ This Message was edited by: ROOFCUTTER on 2001-09-23 20:33 ]

[ROOFCUTTER]

Heres more, Maian this is important the very foundation of our way of life and everthing you hold dear is supported in this. I'm glad you feel so strong about this most just couldn't care less. Please read the constitution and the bill of rights and all the related papers and thoughts from the times our founding fathers were preparing them. They are all avaiable on line and make for easy access. The below link can get started. Remember don't weigh what you read against whats happening today. Understand it first than apply it to todays situations.


http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/repdem.pdf

[BigCaulk69]

maian...like i said you still have things to learn...america has a republican form of government. look it up in the dictionary.

also, i don't know why you think that most politicians write their own speeches. because they just don't...you are right bush probably didnt write that speech. that doesn't mean he didn't contribute to it. nevertheless, it was a good speech.

then to generalize about a group of people by calling them sexist and racist, when they are not, is being hypocritical. you are being as closed minded as you say the republican party is. the only person you described was jessie helms the oldest fart in congress. if you tell me that bill archer, kay bailey hutchison, phil gramm, george bush, j.c. watts, condoleezza rice, ronald reagan, and newt gingrich are racist and sexist then you don't form your own opinions outside of what the media feeds you. try learning about someone/something before you generalize it and criticize it. i could go on and on about how dangerous your statement is but i will move on.

also, if you tell me that the democrats weren't doing everything in their power to win the florida election then you are spouting bullshit too. when you have people from the democratic party saying that attempts to disenfrancise american blacks were happening with the ballots in florida is just insane. if you tell me that you can't tell who to vote for when you have a freaking arrow that points to the person you are gonna vote for then you have problems. DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING THE MEDIA SAYS! if you want to know more about problems with the voting process from both sides, democrat and republican, you can ask me.

for some reason there are people in the democratic party who won't give bush a chance kinda like there were people in the republican party who wouldn't give clinton a chance. i think its too bad that you wouldn't applaude the guy's successs from your school. if it bothered you so much you should have tried to go talk to him about it. form your own opinions and don't believe everything your parents, the media, and textbooks say. PLEASE KEEP AN OPEN MIND AND BE WILLING TO CHANGE YOUR OPINIONS!!!!

Robbie

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checking something out

[FragFailure]

Maian/Andy

Have you checked the public opinion polls recently? W. has a 90% approval rating! Doing the math and having roughly a 45% each for the GOP and Dems and also 10% for the Indies. That means at worst 35% (1/3rd!) of all Democrats in this country support our president. That is assuming that all the Indies are against Bush. That 90% rating is a mandate now btw.

-The US is a REPUBLIC, go back and check your American History books.

-I come from Chicago, Illinois. The home of the one party city. The dems have been in charge here for 100 years. Silver worked at the county building for three years. He'll tell you that the city of Chicago and the Cook county people are laziest forms of life he has ever seen. Why is that? Their jobs will never, ever be threatened. It's the "machine" here of one party rule.

You were an ass for showing that cabinet member no respect at all. How do you expect to be taken seriously if you want bad things to happen to a Bush signiture? If Clinton was at my college and I would have still applauded out of respect for his position. Most all people would have.

You are even more naieve if you really think that all democrats care 100% about the people either. Think Gary Condit (DEMOCRAT) cares about Ms. Levy? The way he came across would indicate no. He doesn't give two piles of dog doo. Does Edward Kennedy (MASS), Joseph Biden (CT), Tom Dashle (SD), and Dick Durbin (IL) "care" just because the are Democrats? W. is about a moderate of a GOP that you will ever find. Maybe since the days of Ike.

Do you REALLY think ANY president writes their own speeches? They PAY people to do that. BTW Ronald Reagan AD LIBBED his 1984 acceptacnce speech at the Republican convention. One more question. Did Bush read off a sheet at ground zero when he held a megaphone in his hand? No, he adlibbed because he is an "idiot" and could not POSSIBLY memorize his lines there. He's much too dumb for that Maian. So maybe Bush is genuine and you are being a naieve liberal. Now, drop this or I give you lesson in truth in politics Maian.

Rigged elections. Hmm. What about Chicago's own Mayor Richard M. Daley? In 1960, finding a late 110,000 "votes" to give John F. Kennedy the state of Illinois and ultimately the difference in the election against Richard M. Nixon. Vote early, vote often comes from here. Did Nixon challenge this? Nixon didn't even bother to challenge this like Gore did. The reason for the electoral college is to give smaller states in the union some say. The college came with the constitution. Otherwise, we may as well just hold voting in NY, Cali, Texas, Illinois, Ohio, Pa., and Fla. and tell everyone to stay home.

Beleive me, if the Dems could've found the extra votes in Florida they would have. Hell they were counting pregnant chads. Those voters in Florida were morons for not reading close to who they were voting for. THEIR FAULT. In Chicago we had the same setup and I made DAMN sure on the ballot which numbers I punched. Stupidity should not be rewarded.

I've pretty much had these viewpoints since my mid to late teens. I was able to hear and formulate my own opinions. It didn't make me very popular in high school (sex, drugs, and rap/rock) and at Columbia College in Chicago I was talked down to for not being sensitive enough. I was equal time in those classes and it was fuuuuuun!

[ This Message was edited by: FragFailure on 2001-09-24 05:05 ]

[Warhammer]

Indeed, the United States is not a Democracy. We value democratic principles, principally over other regimes such as totalitarianism, monarchy, or theocracy. But make no mistake about it Maian, we do not live in a democracy. We live in a Democratic Republic.

Certainly you can argue that President Bush did not have a mandate to hold office, but he was elected lawfully.

[DarkTemplar316]

politics always makes ppl fight

[BigCaulk69]

it can also make people think too.

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checking something out

[Sully]

I think I can safely say, speaking for all the older people on the Ville who have stepped into the deeper water of "real life", that the beliefs we held in high school and college are nowhere near the beliefs that we hold now.
Exposure to adult life, along with the maturation that aging forces on all of us, changes our perceptions drastically. This is a natural process, and really one of the beauties of the human condition.
Maian, I respect the fact that you are thinking about these things, and I certainly believe that you should hold to your own beliefs. My only piece of advice is that you consider what subjects can fall under the umbrella of "fact", and "certainty". Truly, I think that you will find that number of things in life that are "certain" is a very small amount indeed. Less absolutes, my friend. Alienation of new ideas and opinions is hazardous to your growth. This is especially true when those new ideas are ones forming in the back of your own brain, but you ignore them because you believe that you already hold a "truth" to be self evident.
As for those who responded a little harshly to our friend, I would ask that you think back to earlier days when you formed your first beliefs. Are they still the ones you hold today? Everyone grows, my friends. We are fortunate that we have this platform of good people to grow with.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings. I'll shut up now.


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That which does not kill you.... Should have.

[ This Message was edited by: sully on 2001-09-24 00:29 ]

[Pornstar]

Please Please people. Lets not get to heated. Maian I am a working stiff that the Dems sya they are protecting. BS. I am a Rep Conserv. because I use logical reasoning. And Racism, will All the hard working respectable blacks I know are Rep. I don't understand why you hate what we stand for. To be conservative is yes sometimes being old style and in the past. Rep are the party that really supports the working class because they support Big business which in turns makes the economy go around and employees people so they can make a living. The Dems just want us to become another Demo Socialist state like most European countries. Thats BS. We have proven time and time again that Socialism and Communism does not work in large groups. Not only that Bush did happen to write most of that speech which is why he did not studder. Bush is a good leader because he delegates. So what if Daddy gives him advice and helped him on his campaign. Bush senior's experience and wisdom surpass many in the realam of politics. If Gore was to have been elected all i can say is that the Terroist attacks would have been alot worse and those Tyrannic leaders and Exermists that are over in the middle east with those loving Islamic people would have been getting their way and running over the rest of the middle east. As you can see I am not spelling things correctly, which is due to my public social program education. And Roof sadly enough, they are teaching liberal wys in the poublic schools. The NEA is very liberal and very powerful in the education system. This even goes for College. The new edition of the Macroeconomics book has been changed alot since the last book to favor socialistic economy. It is sick. Oh well I will shut up now.

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Yes I got..Oh damn it I killed myself again.

[ This Message was edited by: pornstar on 2001-09-24 03:31 ]

[Maian]

Now, first of all, I dont think all republicans are as I generalized them. But what they stand for sure is. For instance:
Anti Abortion: they dont like women to be able to choose. They like to feel superior. Some argue it is Pro-life, but thats a joke. And they cant even decide when life begins.

And what, republicans are good people now. Hm, i notice that you had much more bad democracts listed than republicans. I dont know why (sarcasm).

And I dont believe you were actually defending Nixon! How the hell could you. And some of our best presidents have been democrats ie: Clinton, Kennedy, LBJ, which have done more for this country than any republicans put together. Now wait, I know what you're thinking "But wait, Washington and Lincoln were republicans" Yes they were, but you know what, the roles have switched since then. Back then, republicans were what democrats stood for, visa-versa.

And what the hell. You think im an ass for not clapping for that guy. I will never acknowlege him for what he is. He is a disgrace to our people, and turned our back on us. Much like our mayor, Carlos Ramirez, an elected Democrat from El Paso, TX. Once Bush started running for prez, Ramirez turned on us, and startd kissing Bush's ass, hoping to become ambassador to Mexico or something. He was deeply criticized for this. Now you're telling me thats "honorable", like the cabinet member?

Oh, ah yes, now I remember this is called the Republic of America (sarcasm). No, its not!!!! The republic of Spain is a republic. Our democracy is what sets us apart from them. It may have the republic characteristics, but remember why our country was founded in the first place.

And you have the balls to try to recruit me as a Republican. I believe you said "Be open to new ideas" of something like that. What the hell, Havent you read what Ive been saying this whole time?!?!?! I will never be one of you. I'm sorry Frag, I just really had to get this off my chest. Now, I'm willing to stop this if you guys are. If you make another post trying to contradict what I've said, I will personally take it as an insult. Lets stop this now.





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"If shame had a face I think it would kind of look like mine"

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[BigCaulk69]

maian,
you keep making comments without thinking about what you are saying. by saying that republicans are pro-life because they want to control women is presupposing that a woman can't make a decision of her own. can't a woman just be pro-life outside of the influence of a man? also you presuppose that a democrat can't be pro-life...i guess if a democrat was pro-life then they wouldn't be trying to control women like you say pro-life people do, right? maian there is as much of a religious left as there is a religious right...aka jesse jackson, al sharpton.

also i am curious how exactly did those to political figures from el paso change? what about their public policy changed? can you state how their positions changed? or did they just turn their backs on yall by working with bush?

also maian did you look up the definition of republic? if you do you will see that it fits our system of government. we do not have a democracy. we elect representatives...in a democracy we would vote on all the bills ourselves.

you are still young and have a lot to learn in school and in life.
Robbie

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checking something out

[cstone]

Well Roof asked if they were still teaching US History in school. They are indeed teaching US History in the 11th Grade (at least in NC).

One of the many interesting things I learned from that class was.... George Washington (our very first president) did NOT have a party affiliation. As a matter of fact, as he departed from the presidency he advised the nation to avoid creating political parties, most likely b/c he invisioned out-of-hand debates like the one that we are all witnissing on this forum.

As for my friendly advice to Maian: The world (not even the USA) is not black and white (good and evil). In the real world good people and good ideas tend to have faults and problems. I guess nothing is perfect.. not even a Democrat.

Hell, I just turned 18 and I am now a registered Democrat. But a politician is still a politician - they are all far from perfect, just like the rest of us.

Maian, please do not take this whole debate as a personal attack. Just because people have differing opionions does not mean that they have hate each other.

Perhaps we should just avoid political conversations all together. It is very difficult to convince someone that thir point-of-view is wrong, especially over the Internet. This whole discussion is becoming very futile.