[Warhammer]

What really gets me about all of this is what could possibly motivate someone to hate the US so much as to give up their lives for this. I believe that we as Americans have become a generally passionless people compared with many others in the world (mostly near-third world countries like the Middle East), which makes us unable to identify with them in this regard. When you get people who only hear the voice of Islamic fundamentalism propaganda like bin Laden spews, they breed a culture of hate. Remember that bin Laden is a military ruler with "a cause". After the Afghan-Russian war ended, he replaced Russia as his cause with the US when he didn't like our presence in Saudi Arabia. It was reported by the "60 Minutes 2" reporters that a major catalyst of this event was the failed cruise missile attack on bin Laden's training camp in 1998. Now, the only thing these fundamentalists have seen firsthand from the US is a military bombardment, which completely plays into bin Laden's propaganda.

So, what do we do to prevent this cycle of hatred to continue? I think that those that have decided to commit acts of terror will do so. Perhaps we can prevent actions on the scale of what happened Tuesday by deploying increased security measures, using political and military tactics to prevent harboring of known terrorists. But I think the key also lies in demonstrating that the US is not hostile to Islamic people as a whole. With our support of Israel, attacks on Iraq, cruise missile strikes on Sudan and Afghanistan, it's hard not to take that as an anti-Islamic stance. And you have to admit that when the majority of Americans think about what they define as an Islamic person, we think "intolerant religious extremist".

I believe the key to peace involves changing that view, on both sides.

[Thom Yorke Obliterator]

Thanks for the intelligent counterpoint, Warhammer. It's easy to be overcome by emotion and want to retaliate for violence with violence.

But do you think peace is a viable option given the broad cultural differences here? We are a democratic nation with a broad mix of races and cultures. Compromise and tolerance are a way of life for us whether we realize it or not, and we often foolishly expect the rest of the world to play by our rules. The Arab peoples who oppose us most violently are undiluted. They are of a single religion, a single culture, and a single purpose. And that's how they are determined to stay. They do not want to be like us, they refuse to play by the rules we define, and I admire them for their devotion and strong will.

Which is fine, except that they are also determined to kill us.

Our solution again and again is to try and barter peace, to try to play the game by our rules. A peace treaty in the Middle East isn't worth the paper it's printed on. A cease fire in the Middle East lasts as long as it takes to reload your guns. What have decades of diplomacy gotten us? Ask a New York City rescue worker.

Even as soft and squishy and complacent as Americans are, we know deep inside how to handle this. If a mosquito lands on your arm and is determined to suck the blood out of you, you do not try to talk sense into it. You don't even think twice about it. You do the rational thing. You squash it.


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[SuperZero]

Why do you see peace as out of the question? A couple hundred years ago, Great Britain was our sworn enemy...so much so that we went to war twice against them, now we're the best of friends. A hundred years ago, brother fought brother in the Civil War, but the nation emerged from that and we have peace once again. A couple decades ago, if I told you that Russia would back us wholeheartedly after this act, you'd laugh in my face. Not to sound too cliché, but you've gotta give peace a chance...old hatreds die hard. At this point, it's a given that we will strike out at those responsible, but that doesn't mean that peace in the future is out of the question. Just judging from the outcry from around the globe, the unlikely support we've found in various countries that even today you'd never expect would back us...hell, we may find a more unified world than ever once we've weathered this tragedy. I may be naive, but then again, who knows? Warhammer, I totally agree...this isn't about religion, but we tend to look at all Muslims as somehow being the same. Over here in the states, we've got tons of different people...some of them just as psychotic as terrorists halfway around the world. So why is it that we assume that another group of people can't be equally diverse in their opinions? I don't mean to sound like I'm condoning the crazy, bomb-toting pyschos...I personally believe that there's a special place in hell warming up for their breed...but living alongside them are decent people who don't deserve to feel the heavy end of the hammer come down on them just because of the actions of these maniacs. We're better than that. We need to find those responsible and punish them...and we will...but the last thing we want is a "kill em all and let God sort em out" kind of mentality. Then we'll become just like our enemy.

Oh, and to answer Thom's point about peace treaties w/ the middle east not being worth the paper they were printed on...well, it reminds me of a story. There was this group of people who decided they wanted to expand their lands, so they bartered deal after deal with the owners of the land, breaking nearly every contract along the way, forcing the owners off their land and gradually exterminating them almost entirely. They were called Americans, and the owners of the land were (naturally) the various indian tribes of the continent. We will never undo the damage we've done, and now (far too late) our minds have finally turned to peace. A people can change...it isn't always easy, and it rarely happens overnight, but it can happen.

Sorry for the length of the post, but a lot has been kicking around in my head this week and I figured I'd toss my opinion into the arena. I feel like the only young guy who isn't screaming for blood around here, and it's tough being the minority...people assume that just because you don't want to see Afganistan blown off the face of the earth, that you are somehow a sympathizer or something. I hope ya'll don't see it that way, but I also hope that at least some of this post is taken seriously, even tho I am young and stupid. Overall, the reactions to Tues have made me damned proud to call myself an American, and just as proud to call all of our allies true friends.

God bless,
~Dave/SZ

[Warhammer]

Point taken regarding the Israeli-Palestine conflict, Thom. However I'd suggest your mosquito analogy is more accurately represented by bees - say one stings you and kills itself in the process. What will the reaction be if we go banging on its nest to get rid of the other bees? The rest will come out the same as the first, when they would otherwise be content to do nothing.

I do believe the Islamic-Israeli conflict is separate from what we face with bin Laden though. Sure, the Palestineans, Iraqi, and extremist Islamic have a common enemy in the US, but for very different reasons. I do believe that Palestine will never occupy the Holy Land by means of terror or war, Jihad or not. I do believe that Saddam Hussein will eventually be overthrown, perhaps it will take many years like communist Cuba is changing.

Two things I feel are key to a global peace and understanding is education about other cultures, and to prevent the breeding of hatred and contempt for other cultures. If we can achieve this, even in a fascist regime like the Taliban, we have a chance at achieving some degree of world peace within a generation or two. As long as the descendents of this generation don't grow up hating Israelis, Americans, Chinese, Africans, etc., the prospects of peace are better than they are today.

[Thom Yorke Obliterator]

You know, I think my post turned into too much of an angry diatribe and didn't really get across the point I was trying to make. I wasn't trying to say that we shouldn't give peace a chance in any case, or that peace shouldn't be our primary goal. My point is that peace is not always a viable or effective option. Especially in this case, where we are targeting violent extremists who exist outside of national borders and laws. Osama bin Laden and his associates will not sit down and bargain with us, nor will other terrorist groups.

And the target here cannot be just a single group. It has to be the whole culture of lawless terror. They will take bolder and braver risks, to outdo those who came before them. It wasn't enought to bomb and damage the World Trade Center - the towers had to come down. And it's damn hard to top the visual imagery of skyscrapers toppling. But do you know what would top that? A mushroom cloud.

Sorry for being such a downer. Now back to your regular silly Thom posts . . . .

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[Hamese]

I have seen all well put opinions on this forum. I think that peace is out of the question this go around. If you are parenting a child that disobeys things they have been told not to do, or rules given. Then you can't always say, "stop that" or slap them on the wrist (sending scud missiles to them). At one point it is best to do so some real discipline and spank their asses.
Peace could be very possible, but for them to attack civilians like this and deny it. Then about five hours after airports open up, they try it again, like the first one didn't get all of our attention. There should be no argument. I hate the fact that we would have to go to war to prove a point and to harm other people’s lives, but we have traveled the road of peace and it has taken us back to the beginning.
I like the bee analogy, but if it were me, I wouldn't shake the hive. I would use my trusty lighter with a can of WD40!! j/k
Regardless of what happens lets just pray that it ends quickly and that lives of many more Americans will not have to be expended for the Freedom of this great Nation, and the for the fight against Terrorism.

And as a volunteer firefighter please remember the Firemen and Police officers in NYC.

Thanks

[llama_beans]

Man this thread is getting out of hand. But the views of the people that I read is very different.

Here are the problems that I see.
1. We attack the terroist group and we get them. The next group is in line to take it's place.

2. As long as countries make it okay to harvest these crimminals they will always be around.


So how do we get rid of them?????

1. We attack the government of the countries who harvest these people. This can also be through ways that don't envolve war. But that would probably just piss them off more and affect the people of that country more as well.

Please remember we have terroist cells here in the US and we are not able to stop all of them. Due to laws and other crap like that. These things need to be reclassified under law and put under a military juristiction.

I can't think of any other thing that can be done to stop this. We've tried everything else before and it hasn't worked.

We've bombed other countries before over this and it hasn't helped only delays it for 5-10 years.


As far for the people over the big pond who are partying over this. I say we help them let turn on glow mode for them. They can party till they die....... Although doing something like this wouldn't help our cause..

[Maian]

Well put TYO. I think peace is the best solution. I dont want to sound like a hippie, but why cant we just stop fighting. Like TYO said, we had the entire cold war against Russia, and now, they're one of our best allies. hopefully war will not break out. The last thing we need is more killing.

[{BGS}GLOOMIE357]

First thing first, I would and I'm pretty sure alot of us would, like to see our tax money that is use for military be use to kick some ass. I would like to see a peace agreement workout but no way in hell that is going to happen. That's not how these terrorist thinks, they want to see the US be wiped off the face of this earth. I think now is the time to demonstrate what happens when you mess with the US. It might be easy for alot of us to say that it is possible but, since I live in NYC, there is so many targets they want to go after and the only way to stop it is to kill them all first. I have to take the subway and bridges everyday and a couple a years ago, these terrorist almost took out these vital routes. If you try reasoning to these people, it's like talking to a break wall. There not going to answer you. Even though you can negotate with their government, you think those governmant can control those people. Shit, Arafat can't even control his people. US has laws too but some of us break them. The only way to stop this madness is to do a major kick ass and kill all those SOB. This is my theroy, if you disagree, I'm all ears!

[ApacheEyes]

Gloomie357 - I Agree 100% - there are some people that you simply cannot make peace with, they don't want peace and will never want for peace. The only way to deal with terrorist is to wipe them off the face of the earth and make it a better place for all.

It is however easier said than done, and the U.S. is not going to be able to do it alone. This is a worldwide problem and its going to take the all the peace abiding countries efforts to even get close to achieving the U.S. objectives.

Remember this also - This war is never going to end, there are always going to be SOB terrorists in this world, everytime we get one, there will be another crack pot fanatic going to step up for some reason or another.

Ap.

[Greebo]

Ok I realise it's 6 days since this took place, but I've been away in Spain for 4 1/2 of those days.
Thankfully for my sanity, I could keep up to date with these terrible events while I was in Spain, through the Television and the Uk newspapers that were imported to Spain. I think I would've been in more shock than I was if I'd found out about it all only when I'd got back.

I read as many of these posts as I could, but I was only skim reading so forgive me if I repeat anything that's already been said.

America has been seriously wounded, I hope I don't offend anyone when I say this, but I believe the American people had built up kind of an image of invulnerability around themselves, and now this image lies shattered.

What happened was barbaric - but the words I'm hearing out of Bush and Blair etc aren't much better. To quote flankattack in an email he sent out to PWG on this topic:

"Should the path lead to war i will never accept it, and i will never believe it is right. For war always affects the innocent and the public, never the soldiers who fight it. It will be a long pointless war, leading to further misery and hate. Hate will lead to more terrorism and more acts of violence which is simply a viscious circle.

Should it lead to War then America and the other countries that take part will be no better than the terrorists who began the path.

I want people to accept the tragedy, for there is nothing they can do about it. Try to rebuild their lives, try to live through the suffering, but try not to hate. For hate will only make it worse and lead to more destruction in both the world physically and
socially.

So many people with coloured skin in America at the moment hide now out of fear, because some people are prejudiced and automatically hate anyone arab simply because of some spurious links to the bombings. Is this right? Is this cost really worth this wonderous unity? No, no benefit is worth the misery of even one person.

War can never be justified, for the suffering of one person is not justified by the gain of many. Never can morality simply become mathematics, and never can the
leaders or groups of countries try to tell us that it is right that they do this. "


I think for me it still hasn't sunk in, the enormity of what happened last tuesday, perhaps it never will.

However IMHO revenge through war isn't the answer - especially when we still don't know for sure who even did this!

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[FingerDemon]

Greebo and others who feel peace is the only answer, I appreciate and admire what you say. You may be the voices of our better natures. But I honestly do believe there are people so awful that seeing that you have nothing but peace in your heart and love for them as your fellow man would only drive them to gleefully take advantage of you through violence. When faced with this, you must protect yourself... with violence if necessary. Nevertheless, peace in the face of violence is extremely powerful and IMHO if the palestinians took more of a Mahatma Ghandi/ Martin Luther King approach, they might further their cause in the world greatly. Far more than a Molotov cocktail on a tank.

I just wanted to point out that my understanding of Bin Laden's organization is simply that he has provided support and funds to any terrorist organization that feels similarly to him. So, in effect these terrorist groups have been out there for a long time and just didn't have the money, or the luxury of time that money can afford, to plan and carry out crimes like this. The fact that Bin Laden appears to have short-sold re-insurance stock (to make a profit on the attack) would bolster the argument that money is crucial to his organization and its effectiveness.

Deciding on peace or war here is really an intellectual exercise since Bush has declared war. Largely, I think use of the word "war" was to garner the specific authority he needs to launch military actions, but the difference is semantic.

My point really is that if we break up the money network Bin Laden represents, the main objective will be accomplished. I don't see how we could fail to do this much. And I really think we need to. Many more nations than ours could be at risk if we don't. Bin Laden has apparently been trying to foster islamic fundamentalist groups to overthrow the elected government Tajikistan and somewhere else I forget.

Beyond that, its hard for me to know where to draw the line. I don't have a problem going after any terrorist groups that had a hand in this, but I don't like the idea of innocents in Kabul catching cruise missiles either. I'm hoping there are some military geniuses in what's left of the Pentagon with some top secret toys that can accomplish the coming missions with as little loss of life as possible.

FingerDemon

[Thom Yorke Obliterator]

To kind of change the topic for a second, isn't it fascinating to see the broad range of responses here? Let's face it . . . the Ville is a place where we come to be violent. In the normal course of the game, everybody who posts here is a skillful and ruthless killer. Yet on a subject like this, we have opinions ranging from rabid warmongering to, uh, not-so-rabid peacemaking. A social psychologist would have a field day with us!!

_________________
I'm not internationally known, but I'm known to rock the microphone.

[ROOFCUTTER]

Hey Greebo I hope you had a good time in Spain.
Sorry that we can't just respond to your trip. Maybe another thread and you can tell us all about it.
I believe that the War will not have very many cruise missiles involved. The very nature of the terroist groups will preclude this . Finger demon is right though they will most certianly put pressure on them by blocking their access to their accounts. Making it hard for them to gather, meet by taking out these specific locations as they are discovered. Harrassing them by forcing them to stay on the move. Identifing them and their familes and where they are from. Pressureing the goverments that may harbor them. This is why they say it will take years. this is going to be a long term commitment with spys, infiltrators and everthing that goes with the "spy" trades.
They might bomb Kabul because this is the country where old Bin whatever is. Making them give him up would be better than going in and getting him. This is all conjecture because we have no "inside information" and they might actually be pursuing other people using Bin as a distraction....only time will tell. The northern people of Afaganastan want our help to overthrow the ruling party in Kabul so go figure.

Also I don't believe we are so innocent and not deserving of some pain. We have made mistakes and done things that are not very honorable and some out right evil things. So don't assume we aren't aware of this.

Just because bad people hide behind the face of religion dosen't make the religion bad, if it did no religion would be exempt from being considered bad.

We may not have expected this to happen here or any where but the facts are they happen world wide daily. No country that I can think of hasen't been rocked by some type of terroist attack. The Russians are aching for us to help them out with the terroist problem due to their problems with them.



America has come a far way in the time I've been alive. We have grown into our own laws and rules. Paid for by much pain and suffering and courage. All people have a great chance to live and be left alone. We have a lot farther to go but the dream is real and burns in my heart and many millions like myself. The people that react badly to others are the few and the lost. They will always be a fringe group that does not reflect any of the values or thoughts of the rest of us.
The most beautiful thing about America to me is the fact it dosen't matter what you believe in or don't believe in it's the fact that man to man we have agreed that each and every one of us has the right to pursue life,liberty and happiness. The foundation was layed years ago and were just catching up to it now.

I may love my country and support her but that dosen't mean that I don't think the people in charge for a good part of my life have been raping her and looting her and generally leaving us in the monetary state we are in today. At least the pursuit of these terroists is actually covered in our constution as one of the few jobs the US goverment has been authorized to carry out.

Finally and gladly I state that one of the reasons I like these online games is the fact that I play with people from all over the world. People I would never have occasion to talk to let alone get to know and enjoy time with. I can see no difference in any of you and myself, our values hopes and dreams seem to be along the same lines.

Ok rant over hope this made sense. I at least understand myself a little better.

[cstone]

We need justice, not revenge.

We need to hold the leaders responsible, not the ignorant masses who are easily swayed by anti-western propoganda.

We should not give up our freedom so that our government can detain terrorists.

We need to know where that $40 billion government check is coming from. Education? Social Security? Medicare? Your senators' paycheck?

We need to stop pissing off the people in the middle east.

This one's out of left field: Overthrow the Taliban with a new government. This would only work if the Afgans are already unhappy with the Taliban.

But then, with history as our guide, we can look to Kennedy's failure on the removal of Castro. And if I'm not mistaken, Kennedy also tried and failed to start a revolution in Cuba (or maybe that was Panama?) Regardless, we must learn from past mistakes.