[Greebo]

I'm incredibly pissed off right now.
The HW debate has been opened once again and it never should have.
I have some general points to make - then a big rant at Halcyon.
1) People who complain about a particular class (in general) lack the ability to kill said class.
2) If we had everyone's way the only bloody class left in the game would be scout - even then no doubt someone would find something to complain about. I've seen people complain about hws, snipers, medics, soldiers, pyros, demos, engineers, and spies.
3) Every class has a purpose, every class has strengths and weaknesses, every class requires some degree of skill to play - in most cases a lot more than people realize.
Lets take several examples:

Sniper: Strengths: Very powerful weapon with good long range

Weaknesses: Poorly armoured, not particularly good at short range, limited vision when zoomed

Medic: Strengths: Infection can take a lot out of people, and if used enough can severely cripple another team.

Weaknesses: Is (to me) quite noticeable and so one of the first classes to take out - gettin close to an enemy is quite hard sometimes.

Hw Guy (yes that's Guy, not Gay): Strengths: Powerful Gun, well armoured.....THAT'S IT

Weaknesses: Poor speed = vulnerable to just about anything (hence high armour). Gun is rubbish at long range - the inaccuracy is horrible - makes it pretty much useless, would be easier using a shotgun sometimes. Weapon takes a second or two to wind up. Speed Lowers *further* on firing weapon.

I could go on but I can't be arsed - *every* class has strengths and weaknesses, every class has a purpose - deal with it.

Right fed up moaning about general stuff - time to moan at Halcyon:

You do realise what an ass you sound when you complain about HW guys don't you? Please say yes, please tell me you were joking right?
Do you realise how hard it can be to actually be any good?????

I acknowledge the fact that the manual states that they are good for new players (note I don't say newbie, that's a condescending term in my view) - the reason for this is they are well armoured and they are a good class to get people started on - as it says in the manual "you'll be relatively safe while you familiarize yourself with your surroundings. " That's the reason they're good for new players, nothing more.

It takes just as much skill to be a good HW as it does to be, say, a good spy. You have to learn the class in intimate detail, knowing when to retreat, when to take on several players at once, when to let off that Mirv just before u die

As I've said before - the reason that HW's seem to get so many kills is cos idiots, like yourself Halcyon, run straight at them, and thus straight at their gun.

Do the words, circle strafe mean anything to you?
Sure do to me.

Circle strafe an Hw with a pyro and a good percentage of the time you'll win - the HW is usually confused and can't see crap.

What about concs, you know what they are?

And HW is nothing but a walking shield for the rest of the team if he's conced - he can't aim straight and is essentially useless.

To be a Good Heavy Weapons Guy: You need to avoid spies. You need to avoid concs. You need to avoid snipers. You need to take out at least 5 people at once to avoid being killed. You need to learn how to use the gun at long range (which like I said is limited in use). You need to learn how to avoid people taking advantage of your slow speed.
You also need to learn the other classes so that when llamas go "You're just a hwgay, you've got no skill" - You can change class and prove them wrong. (For the record, llama-boy, I can play spy, sniper [when ping allows - even when it doesn't], soldier, demo, pyro, engi, medic.....even scout on occasion)

If you don't like it, get out of the game. You can't force people to play as you want them to play.

Btw - you said you have skill - I challenge you to the random challenge.
That's right - go random for a game, see how you do - then you'll learn how "skilled" you are(n't).

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[Hamese]

Well stated Greebo. I'm not going to rant, but frankly I'm tierd of seeing that damn signature of his. HW is a tough calss to play, correctly. I would guarantee Hal doesn't stand a chance against players like YPAWOM, Mr. Hat, and some other HW's that I have played with that are just freaking great players.

Maybe he would be happy in the Crowbar wars because there's no HW's there. It also levels the playing feild so he cant whine about class. It would just be skill, or lack thereof

[FragFailure]

The following Ville Public Service Announcement is being sponsored by FragFailure...


Anyone guilty of bitching about classes will receive many visits and deaths from me. Quit yer bitching or will grow not to like me too much.


...now back to your regularly scheduled programming


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[SuperZero]

Damn right man. When all you're doing is complaining about a "cheap" class, how are you gonna have ANY fun? (this goes for you people who hate snipers, spies, engies, etc as well)

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Relax...it's a shame to die all tensed up

[Pointy_Stick]

I don't believe a debate was opened with my post - I just think a lot of people have problems killing a certain class and some of the better players could give the newbies who don't want to play hw some advice on dealing with them. Everybody has their favorite class but i think it's not good that many new players only learn hw because thats the class that kills them the most. If they knew how to exploit the weaknesses of hws I think there would be a lot less bitching about them.

Jason

[Pointy_Stick]

By the way, snipers are a similar class. Ever notice what happens when there are no limits on the amount of snipers on a server? I would just like to see some newbie friendly posts on using other classes to good effect and dealing with the more deadly classes.

Jason

[Greebo]

There's a limit of 2 snipers per team isn't there??

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Offical Ville songwriter.
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[DukeNukem]

Now let's see . . ., I hate Spies, Snipers, Medics, HW Guys, Soldiers, Engies, Pyros & Demos. Come to think of it I hate it whenever anyone kills me -- LOL. Although I do especially hate being knifed in the back of the head by a sneaky (but skilled) spy and it will usually evoke a tongue-in-cheek "damned spy" message from me. But what has that got to do with it? It is a part of the game -- deal with it!

I like to play Medic most of the time. But I will always take any helpful advice on how to deal with other classes. In particular, as Greebo pointed out, a Medic must get very close to infect, but at that range if you get caught in a HW GUY's canon stream even for a few seconds you are toast. I am still not very good yet at circle strafing, but I am getting better. ["Well, she turned me into a newt! -- A newt? . . . . . I got bettah!] Where was I?

OK basically I suck. Well, that wasn't so hard was it? Now that my skill level is out in the open I could use all the advice I can get.


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I STINK, therefore I SPAM! [doctored Descartes]

[ApacheEyes]

Pointy stick _ I disagree with your comments about too many newbies learning HW...

On our servers there is limit of how many HW can play(2 normally), so sooner or later newbies are going to be forced to learn and play another class. I, for one, was grateful of the HW class to start with, it gave me a chance to explore new maps, get to see how other classes play, without getting killed every second.
You have to remember that newbies are just that NEW, we want to have new players in the game and for them to have a good experience when they first start out, otherwise they will not come back.. Without new players in the game, the game is going to eventually die as people move on with their lives and stop playing for one reason or another.
As for HW bashing, those people who do, GET A LIFE, there is nothing wrong with playing the class. YOU people are more than grateful when a HW saves your ass, just because you can't kill one and keep getting mowed down by a HW, its not their fault, they kill you because you put YOUR ASS in front of their amazingly inaccurate chain gun.
There are some VERY skilfull HW specialists out there, I repesct them and I'm always grateful for them being on my side because I know that they will protect my ass while I'm trying to do my own thing.
Ap.

[Pointy_Stick]

I am well aware of the class limitations on the ville. I believe I was refering to other servers with no limit. And because of the limitation on the ville some advice to people like dukenukem would probably be welcome.
I am no expert at medic, but I do know a conc grenade really throws a hw for a loop. Maybe you could try that before you run in to infect. (Don't run straight at him!) there are secondary grenades in both respawns.

Jason

[Bakuryu]

Why complain so much about classes? They are all designed to balance eachother out.

[YourPowersAreWeakOldMan]

Yeah, otherwise we could all just be running around like Quake 3 Team Arena with all the same abilities and stats, just different skins.

This same debate happens all the time in StarCraft and Diablo2 as well, which both I play as well as this.

In Diablo2 everyone cries about the Barbarian whippin' people's asses in duels and Player Killing. Both of which I enjoy and I play Barbarian not because he's got a huge melee advantage, I just have an affinity to the big hulking people. Even in fighting games I play the Slow Burly guy, I just like em. And this is for Bakuryu since he'd understand this more than most. I like Stun in BR2. I actually went by "Stun: The Insect" while playing TFC before.

In StarCraft it's always complaining about the Zerg being able to build too fast and rush...hey if it weren't part of the game would the designers have allowed it and included it? That's why it's called a Strategy game...

Now you're probably like, "Hey this isn't a strategy game YPAWOM."
But in a way, Isn't it?

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[ROOFCUTTER]

I got news for you. Every club I've ever been in or visited or know about whether game related or not has always had an argument over one thing or the other. one way to do something or the other. one persons view or the other. One car is better or the other. one dog is better or the other. On and on and on some clubs break up in bitterness some just keep going.
some enjoy the arguing and tall talk. So you can talk trash and remain civil or explode in anger or... the one thing your not going to do is stop arguing. so get used to it it will be around your whole life.
Opps that maybe 3 cents worth don't worry I don't want change consider it a tip.

[Greebo]

I love arguing - or to be more exact, debating.
It's fun and it's very intellectually stimulating.
In this case the post was done more out of being incredibly pissed off at Halcyon from his post in his mod's thread which had "Any more gay assed questions....." or something like that.

Why have you taken it upon yourself to stop people discussing issues? You seem to hate it.

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Most evil admin around.
Offical Ville songwriter.
"Captain Smart Ass"

[Maian]

Ya Halcyon, take the random challenge. That'll show you just how "good" you are. Although, when you are deal HWG in random, you usually get more kills in one life, than all of your other kills combined. So I tend not to play random, but instead I stick with a hard class. You know, to see who is really skilled, y dont we all play pyro, scout, or demoman. Those are probbly the hardest of all, based on their low health/armor. Now that's fun.

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