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[HALO]MasterChief
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 Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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ugh i think i am gonna go play dod or something. my brain has poped.
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Shovel me Silly
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Time is not a line, but rather an intangible 4 dimensional concept. Time does not run "backwards" or "forwards", |
Time may not be a straight line but it is not 4 dimensional. Time does run backwards or forwards. If time ran backwards we'd start our life coming out of our grave and finishing it in our mothers womb. Also we know that time runs forward because if it were running backwards it would violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. (just think of the explosion of stars)
| Quote: | | Ok, I (and genious-type physicists) cant even begin to explain this. Quite the paradox, eh? Its messes with that whole, rate = distance/time. (this means, essentially that if you are travel say, 100 miles in 1 hour the rate you are traveling is 100 mph.) So why the hell is this formula (perhaps the only formual i've ever understood in physics) so fundamentally WRONG? |
The equation rate= distancd/time is fundamentally wrong if you want to use it in all cases (like light). That is why the "genious-type physicists" (notably Einstein) came up with the theory of relativity which explains it in even more cases (but still not in the cases of extremely small particles i.e. quantum theory).
| Quote: | | Therefore.... If we can get going fast enough we can Time Travel into the FUTURE. Lets say I step into some sort of device that lets me travel at something totally ridiculous like 1,000,000 mps... Think of how much slower time is going for me. Then I step out and I'm... years in someone who WASNT moving at 1,000,000 mps's future. Coollll, huh? |
First of all, if you go faster then the speed of light you would travel backwards in time. Secondly, if you would want to use a device that has any real mass then it would take an infinite amount of energy to get you to 186,000 miles per second. You would also become infinitely massive. The closer you get to the speed of light the amount of energy needed goes up exponentially and your mass goes up exponentially. Light can go the speed of light because it has no real mass.
| Quote: | | What about travel to the past? Maybe. But this little theory only works for going FORWARD. Its not like you can reverse the whole thing and speed up BACKWARDS. (like if you were traveling NEGATIVE 1,000,000 mps you could go BACK in time... uh... but how does one travel at a negative speed?) |
Just an overall wrong statement.
| Quote: | | However, travel to the past is far from impossible. Lets say Time is curved, and goes in a crazy 4 dimensional sphere (except it wouldnt be a sphere since it has 4 dimensions and spheres are 3 dimensional... whatever... i have no idea what one would call that). |
It would be a sphere because there are 3 spatial dimensions and 1 time dimension. (There are also theoretically 7 more dimensions that are curled up so tightly they are not able to be observed yet).
| Quote: | | and if a black hole sucks everything in and crushes it then could a whitehole spit everything out could they actually be connected and what one sucks in the other spits out??? |
Whiteholes are forbidden by the 2nd law of thermodynamics. So if a black hole spit you out of a whitehole you would be in another universe/part of our universe which the 2nd law of thermodynamics were in reverse. And everything I've read about the subject life as we call it cannot exist if the 2nd law of thermodynamics were in reverse.
| Quote: | Violent Pacifist wrote:
Let's just say that if you did go back in time, you'd run into an infinite number of yourself that all arrived at the same point at the same moment.
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You would not run into an infinite number of yourselves. Even though there are theoretically an infinite number of universes in which you exist they are all different in fundamental ways. (There would not be another universe if it were not different).
| Quote: | Jfet Zener wrote:
argument against time travel: if it were possible, where are the visitors? even if it were made illegal, you know there would be those who break the law and come back with evidence that time travel is possible.
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How do we know people haven't travelled back in time already? If anyone came out and kept saying they travelled back in time they'd be sent into a mental institution and never heard of again. If they came with evidence I doubt that there would be anyone on Earth who could verify it. We are a long long way before we can prove we can travel back in time. If I travelled back in time I'd make damn sure nobody figured out I did.
Most scientists are certain that the quark is not the ultimate elementary particle. Scientists found the quark by smashing protons together. This takes a lot of energy in a big tube to do. To break up a quark would require a lot more energy and such a big tube that it will not be built in these current economic conditions. There is a theoretical limit put on the energy level particles can be (something to do with planck's constant). So debating all of this as all pure fact is fruitless, although it is the best we have at the time. |
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Shovel me Silly
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So if we live in a 4d universe (length, depth, height & time), and we have 2d shadows, how many dimensions would a shadow have in an 8d universe? Since 4/2 = 2 and 4-2 = 2 I cant really come to a conclusion myself with a sample size of one. 8/2 = 4 but 8-2 =6 |
Our shadows are 3 dimensional actually. It appears 2 dimensional because of the fact you are observing it on a 2 dimensional surface. You can prove this easily. Stand up where the sun casts a shadow on the ground. Then have some take an object and place it in the air between you and the shadow on the ground. There should be a shadow on it (and anything you put in between there) thus proving that a shadow has length height and depth.
As for your math, an 8 dimensional univere should cast a 7 dimensional shadow (assuming there is only one time dimension). |
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Osama Bin Fluffy
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:20 pm Post subject: C'mon |
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| all I know is that the ben affleck movie about time travel was totally homo, almost gigli bad!! and E=mc^2 and I like to poop as far as the laws of thermodynamics go, I wouldn't try and break them, cause that probably get you sent to jail. |
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Jfet Zener
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| osiris wrote: | | I don't belive in a conventional sense of time. I don't think humanity is thinking of time in any sort of complex terms. What is to say time is linear? Up until a few decades ago everyone was convinced space was linear as well, and now we think its curved. |
if it is 100 miles to point A to point B, and you travel at 10 miles per hour, it takes you 10 hours no matter if the road is straight or curved. we 'travel' through time at a rate of one second per second (roughly...ill explain)
| osiris wrote: | | Time is not a line, but rather an intangible 4 dimensional concept. |
actually, 10+ dimensions is the minimum number required to account for all forces (gravity, weak, strong, electromagnetic) and other thing that happen (curved space, time, etc).
| osiris wrote: | | But in all seriousness, what if time happens all at once, and we are exisiting in an infinate number of times at once. We like to think of time like being in a place- you can only exist in one PLACE at once, and you can only exist in one TIME at once. |
actually no. a photon can be in 2 places at the same time until it is proven at either place. how do we know this? research the double-slit experiment. also get to understand the wave-particle duality first.
| osiris wrote: | | Ok, so here's where this nice little rule goes straight to hell: The Speed of Light (which happens to be 186,000 mps... miles per second). |
yeah. or 3x10^8 meters/second which is the more accepted number
| osiris wrote: | | And what speed do THEY see the light moving at? If you said 286,000mps you'd be wrong, wrong, WRONG. The cops see your flashlight-of-doom emmit light at 186,000 mps as well. |
yes, thats called relativistic physics. things slow down (relative to an inertial time frame...if you dont know what this is, dont try and argue me) as they approach the speed of light. if you were to sit in one place, and you friend drive around a racetrack for a while. when he gets back he will have aged less than you (although by a billionth of a trillionth of a zillionth of a second). same thing with fast moving spaceships...and when you approach the speed of light....well in theory time slows down to nearly nothing for you, which theoretically allows you to travel at an infinite speed (relative to you....you dont notice the time change, but others will have gotten old if not dea already)
| osiris wrote: | | So why the hell is this formula (perhaps the only formual i've ever understood in physics) so fundamentally WRONG? |
its not wrong. well, in the sense that it was meant ONLY as an estimate for non relativistic speeds (<<c [that means much less than the speed of light]). actually there is a gamma factor that comes into play with all physics equations, but there is no need to apply it normally because its effect is so negligable.
| osiris wrote: | | For your light to travel at the same RATE, you had to be moving at a slower TIME than the cops. |
yeah, thats what i said 
| osiris wrote: | | So what the hell does all that mean? Well, start traveling at high enough speeds (like, oh i dont know... 186,000 mps) And you're essentially going faster than reality. |
ok, i guess i should have read your whole post before i reply. we both agree here.
| osiris wrote: | | Lets say I step into some sort of device that lets me travel at something totally ridiculous like 1,000,000 mps... |
no. you cant go faster than light. as you approach light, you approch 'infinite speed' through the time dimension. you can never go faster than light (according to everything we know now)
| osiris wrote: | | but how does one travel at a negative speed? |
it requires someone to be moving at a negative rate through the time dimension...which if they could, they are already going back in time
| osiris wrote: | | However, travel to the past is far from impossible. |
called a wormhole. instead of linking two points in space, you link two points in space-TIME
| osiris wrote: | | a crazy 4 dimensional sphere |
its called a hypersphere
| osiris wrote: | | whats to say one point on said sphere can't be linked to another |
nothing, except the energy required to create this link is more than enough to destroy it right as it is created, as i stated in a previous post
| osiris wrote: | | TIME DOESNT EXIST. |
no. it does exist. it just isnt necessarily linear. everything you argued says that time isnt linear, not that it doesnt exist.
| osiris wrote: | | heres something instersting to think bout, when you go outside and look up into the sky the stars you are seein are not how they look today, when you look at a star your looking at how it looked like millons of years ago, for all we kno that star might not exisist any more. |
yeah, and when i shoot a bullet at your head, when it hits you the gun certainly isnt in the same place. nothing traves at an infinite speed through space (well...through linear space. curved space is another matter)
| Speaker for the Dead wrote: | | the only think i can think of as to why the light wouldnt change and the bullet would is because the bullet has mass and there is wind resistance also the light is instantanous |
no. even if you shot a bullet in space it woudl be same. anyway, light (photons) have momentum as does a bullet (although photons dont have mass), and they arent instantaneous (protons travel at 300000000 meters/sec)
n0g0d...preach on brother. i agree with everything you said except 2 things.
1) your arguments based on 2nd law of thermo. the law is based upon a reference frame moving forward through time. if things move backwards, the law obviously doesnt hold. i.e. its not that you cant go back in time because of the law, but rather it is a law becase you cant go back in time. you had the right idea, wrong analysis of it.
2) shadows dont exist. shadows are a lack of something. our shadows ARE 2d (although they can be mapped to a 3d object) only because we are a 3d being with 3dlight shining on us. id 2d light were shining on us, our shadow would be 1d. the dimension of the shadow (which is just actually a lack of light) can be no higher than the dimension of the light.
everyone...if you want to understand multiple dimensions alot better (and enjoy a good book) get the book Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions by Edwin Abbott Abbott..yes 2 abbott's in his name. itll make you think about multiple dimensions differently than before...or at least help you understand them better *sigh* my fingers hurt.
Last edited by Jfet Zener on Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stevo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I really don't think moving at a certain speed will effect time. Time is a nonexistant thing. Maybe you can trick the brain into thinking that you were traveling for a shorter time than you really did. I saw one of the posts above and it said that you would not have aged, but you still didn't travel time, you just stayed in the same state and didn't age or anything.
You'd probably die if you moved at the speed of light unless you took a very long time to reach that speed because the G force would probably kill you.
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Jfet Zener
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevo wrote: | | I really don't think moving at a certain speed will effect time. |
wrong. there have been many experiments that prove time slows down the faster you go (in an IFR...inertial frame of reference)
| Stevo wrote: | | You'd probably die if you moved at the speed of light unless you took a very long time to reach that speed because the G force would probably kill you. |
1) you cant move at the speed of light, you can only approach. kind of like the frog jumping 1/2 the distance each time. he gets close but never approaches it.
2) yeah, G-forces would be a bitch...but if we had the techonology to go that fast, im sure we have technology to create artificial gravity, so that our bodies wouldnt experience any g-forces. maybe not, but still possible. |
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5th GHG E.G. Mine
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Towelie says, "I have no idea what's going on right now."
"Eyegor, whose brain is this?"
"I don't know. It was someone named Abby Normal."
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Rebel_Rouser
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| [HALO]Master_Chief wrote: | | ugh i think i am gonna go play dod or something. my brain has poped. |
Yes it think your right i am gonna go play some dod to, cause this is too complicating, oh wait i cannot play dod cause i am at college, and they have a FREAKIN FIREWALL 
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[HALO]MasterChief
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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wow this is getting crazy.
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[HALO]cpt._Keyes
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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actually any change in time will create a seperate dimension that encorperates that change, for every choice that exsists in this world...a seperate dimension that encorperates each out come of the choice exsists just some thing for you to chew on
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Shovel me Silly
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | actually any change in time will create a seperate dimension that encorperates that change, for every choice that exsists in this world...a seperate dimension that encorperates each out come of the choice exsists just some thing for you to chew on |
It wouldn't create a seperate dimension, but a seperate universe. (You probably know that just wrote it down wrong). But just think, there is another universe where you did write that down correctly and I didn't make fun of you for it. 
Jfet Zener, you obviously have read a little more than I and more recently. I haven't read these kinds of things since 10th grade (3 years ago). I think I will read some more now thanks to this post. Especially that book you mentioned Zener.
I don't know how other people just don't eat this stuff up for breakfast.  |
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Violent Pacifist
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| n0g0d wrote: |
I don't know how other people just don't eat this stuff up for breakfast. |
I think a lot of people might find the idea that seperate universes are created for everything they do a bit radical.
One thing that I havn't seen answered yet though....how does one test these theories of seperate dimensions, universes, etc. ?? That's quite a bit of info if it's only based on loose facts and assumptions.
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Stevo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Violent Pacifist wrote: | | n0g0d wrote: |
I don't know how other people just don't eat this stuff up for breakfast. |
I think a lot of people might find the idea that seperate universes are created for everything they do a bit radical.
One thing that I havn't seen answered yet though....how does one test these theories of seperate dimensions, universes, etc. ?? That's quite a bit of info if it's only based on loose facts and assumptions. |
That's pretty much how it is on this topic currently. There's no way to test if there's separate universes or dementions or anything like that.
What is a universe? Does it have an end or does it keep going on infinitely? If it ends, what's on the other side? Nothing at all? It's hard to imagine that there's infinite space and even harder to imagine and end to everything. Maybe there are other universes and something bigger that contains those universes and so on. Or maybe they are in a different dementions and are all infinite in the 3rd demention.
I don't think the human brain can really comprehend this stuff. Humans will probably never be able to find out if these things exist either. Feel free to prove anything I said wrong because I really don't know anything on the topic other than what I've read here.
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Shovel me Silly
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One thing that I havn't seen answered yet though....how does one test these theories of seperate dimensions, universes, etc. ?? That's quite a bit of info if it's only based on loose facts and assumptions. |
These aren't just assumptions, but are based on either experiment or mathematical theory. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle states that the more accurate you measure the velocity of a particle the less you know the position of it. You can never know the exact position and velocity of a particle. This is really the basis for quantum mechanics which much of these theories are based upon. There is a thought experiment that helps explain quantum theory more known as Schrodinger's Cat. Here is a link to it and it has links in there on the basics of quantum mechanics that help explain some stuff. http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html
I need to brush up on some of this stuff myself, but it is not just assumptions, there are experiments that proove this stuff. |
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