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sharkbyte
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Joined: 16 Feb 2002
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 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:22 am Post subject: |
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While my 2 posts, on this topic, have not contributed as much as many of the others, they were only meant as tongue-in-cheek to this topic.
I believe Frag has started an excellent discussion, and have enjoyed reading everyone's posts. However, I have not come up with anything more that I can say, that has not been posted already. So I will continue to lurk, and provide a little levity now and then.
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Warhammer
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Joined: 12 Aug 2001
Location: Atlantuh, Jawjuh
Posts: 1226
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say I agree in general with what's been said - Frag's point that elementary education needs to be more practical is certainly valid.
One thing that I think is being overlooked though, is how the education system works to alter the way we think. The "first world" education system not only teaches us about culture, science, and history, but it also conditions our brains to think in different ways depending on the challenges presented to us. (If anyone out there has a degree in Education Theory, I encourage you to post to this point.)
I do believe, for example, that when there are people out there that don't "get" Science and the school of thinking using the Scientific Method, that they are not biologically predisposed to be Science-stupid. It's a matter of conditioning and exercising their brain to think in a way they're not used to. Once people are able to change the way their brain works in this regard, it has a tremendous effect on the way that person can analyze and respond to different situations or circumstances. This also needs to be done at as young an age as possible, as later in life (after 16 or so) it's nearly impossible to re-train the way the brain works.
So what's my point? If you only focus on the practical in the earlier years and hold off on the theoretical until university level, it's going to be extremely difficult to teach advanced concepts.
To the point that "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it", let's take that in the context of the Education system. I think a lot of different teaching philosophies have been tried, yet we keep changing it around because we don't have the optimal system yet - and no one bothers to look around at where the different programs succeeded or failed.
I personally think there are a number of things that need to be changed in our educational system to make it more effective. Aside from teaching practical survival skills as Frag pointed out, parents need to be far more involved with their child's education. Too many kids fail in school because their parents don't care, encourage or help them when they need it.
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shockwave
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Joined: 26 Feb 2003
Location: Drunk in the corner in some Texas bar.
Posts: 1970
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:29 am Post subject: |
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This is no directed at anyone in particular, but I was wondering about the practical skills that most people are wanting in schools.
How many more years are you willing to go to high school to receive these practical skills? In addition to preparing students for almost any degree they choose in college, these practical skills will add another year or two to high school. Do you mind going to high school until you are 20? I would.
If we remove some of the things taught in high school we are also cutting off part of job market. We have need of those who study history, math, and science.
A large number of history majors end up in political science in college, and politics later. Some say that losing some politicans would not be a bad thing, especially certain ones, but we need the numbers we have in that field so that we can try to get the best ones.
A large number of math majors end up in engineering. If we don't have a supply of engineers, then other countries will fill those positions, especially those in the defense industry such as aerospace.
A large number of science majors end up as, well, scientists. Again, if the US doesnt have them foreigners will fill the posts and the US will be behind on cutting edge technology. Hey we don't mind buying electronics from Japan and china, do we?
This being said, we could still make changes to our education system. We can improve on the quality of the teachers and their training for the job. Being a teacher is mostly a thankless job, same as a professor but it pays much more. Another major part is to have teh parents take a better role in their children's education and making sure the children behave.
That is my two cents for the morning. Have fun, I am off to work.
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Violent Pacifist
Registered User
Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Location: Ft. Worth, TX
Posts: 1776
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Warhammer wrote: | I'd say I agree in general with what's been said - Frag's point that elementary education needs to be more practical is certainly valid.
One thing that I think is being overlooked though, is how the education system works to alter the way we think. The "first world" education system not only teaches us about culture, science, and history, but it also conditions our brains to think in different ways depending on the challenges presented to us. (If anyone out there has a degree in Education Theory, I encourage you to post to this point.)
I do believe, for example, that when there are people out there that don't "get" Science and the school of thinking using the Scientific Method, that they are not biologically predisposed to be Science-stupid. It's a matter of conditioning and exercising their brain to think in a way they're not used to. Once people are able to change the way their brain works in this regard, it has a tremendous effect on the way that person can analyze and respond to different situations or circumstances. This also needs to be done at as young an age as possible, as later in life (after 16 or so) it's nearly impossible to re-train the way the brain works.
So what's my point? If you only focus on the practical in the earlier years and hold off on the theoretical until university level, it's going to be extremely difficult to teach advanced concepts.
To the point that "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it", let's take that in the context of the Education system. I think a lot of different teaching philosophies have been tried, yet we keep changing it around because we don't have the optimal system yet - and no one bothers to look around at where the different programs succeeded or failed.
I personally think there are a number of things that need to be changed in our educational system to make it more effective. Aside from teaching practical survival skills as Frag pointed out, parents need to be far more involved with their child's education. Too many kids fail in school because their parents don't care, encourage or help them when they need it. |
I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points here. It's true that all through my life, whenever a student said that "He doesn't get it" or was having a hard time, the teacher would come up and tell them to try thinking in a different manner. Sometimes this worked, sometimes it didn't.
No one to my knowledge is born any-subject-stupid, but they don't have to be to become like that. Many teachers throughout the trip to highschool are extremely bad. Because of the increasing number of students and the stagnent pool of teachers, some students recieve improper or inadequate attention. Some teachers just can't help everyone, while others simply don't care to, but are hired to fill the position anyway.
Throughout these times of deprivement, the child's brain continues to develop a negative way of thinking. Every time he encounters a problem he has trouble with, he sits back and tells himself he can't do it, that he's too stupid, when all he really needs is help. Some parents can't deliver this kind of attention, even if they want to. When the child then goes to highschool, he has even more trouble. The level of thinking increases and the teachers sometimes become less helpful than before. His brain did alter it's way of thinking, but because he was not born intelligent and needed all the help possible, he ended up going downhill. As you said in your post, most brains past the age 16 are near impossible to "alter".
But the above paragraph was concentrating upon the child that needed help. What about the ones born with the "gift" of being able to think for themselves much earlier than most? These group of kids, though less in number, are also educationally hurt throughout the years.
In the beginning, everything seems so simple to them. They don't need the help, and, to the teachers relief, they don't ask for it. This allows the teacher to concentrate on helping the students who do need it. Sometimes, the teacher will even give these few student/s harder work to sate their desire to learn - often, but not always, these students will use their gift of higher level thinking to learn more - and to keep their minds working at that higher level. Soon, this becomes natural to the student. If ever he advances a year and finds out that he's going to be doing the same thing as everyone else for the entire year, he becomes bored. He works faster than the rest, does all his work because he might have nothing else to do in class, he gets all A's and becomes bored. Still, he doesn't need help, he doesn't ask for it, so it's not given.
This continues on, his brain becomes set. He now thinks that he doesn't ever need help, and that his classes are boring because he's not actually learning. What happens, then, when something he does need help on comes along? Is he going to say "I need help on this, because I'm having trouble with it". Some might, but some won't. Instead, they will sit there with steadfast resolve to solve it on their own. Some grow impatient, get frustrated, and simply give up on it. Of course, their brains rebel against this thought process because they have gotten A's all their life. They've always turned in their papers and done better than the rest. But why then, are they doing poorly now? Immediate thoughts blame the teacher, or that they were born stupid at this subject. Anything but themselves, since they had done extremely well until then, so how could it be them? Their minds have also been altered, and once again in a negative way. All through their elementary years, their brains become accustomed to easy work, and being above the rest. When they reach the more difficult level, their brains rebel against everything.
My idea's about "gifted" students may be a little rough in some areas, but most of it I know to be true, because I have been there myself. All events I described are pretty near to what my kindergarten to 8th grade years were like. My parents forced their help upon me though, so I'm doing much better this year in highschool, but not all kids have parents that can or will do so for them. Because it's a small minority of all the problems with children in school today, this problem normally gets overlooked.
The parents do play a major part in the child's learning abilites, but the school and educational system also plays a bigger part. For the middle student that isn't needy or privileged with advanced intelligence, the school system might seem perfect. But in reality, it's far from that, and concentrating on tradition, students that need help early on and not afterward, and introducing new things or concepts of learning that truthfully will never hold any value in your life is not helping. Also, people need to recognize the fact that some teachers are dried up, stupid, idiotic, aggravating, tedious, annoying, strict, bitter little ol' windbags that need to be fired, slapped, kicked, beaten, and force fed penguin barf (My first semester 8th grade english teacher)
Goodday and thank you
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Twisted29
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Joined: 12 Aug 2001
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 1321
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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I thought this thread was really cool. Here are my two cents on the topic. I've been through college for engineering, worked in the field for about a year and am just about half way done with my masters.
I think all the pointless crap you take in highschool is great. It prepares you for the frustration and futility of the real world.
Can i retire yet?
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